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Topic: Helicopter total realism 1.0 - htr -  released, Create your own helicopter now< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Focha
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Posted: Mar. 10 2010,09:39

Quote (frednaar @ Mar. 10 2010,04:38)
Quote (Focha @ Mar. 10 2010,04:23)
Hi there all.

I've been flying and testing the 412 profile. While in cruise it seems that the tail rotor has a lot of efficiency. Can someone test it in cruise? Also, correct me if I am wrong, it doesn't seem that the helicopter fuselage tends to turn into the relative wind but if it does probably it is barely notice because of the high tail rotor efficiency in cruise. Well, aerodynamically talking about the tail rotor disc it should be more efficient with some speed since translational lift also occur in tail rotor but the fuselage drag and inertia should also reduce or lower the tail rotor response, correct me if I am wrong.

Sundog in the configuration file you write the VNE = 120 mph, this is not true, the VNE is ~161 mph (140 KIAS) from sea level to 3000'. After that general VNE you have a bunch of them... VNE decrease per pressure altitude, VNE when above 81% torque, VNE when AP engaged, VNE without doors and so on. I am saying this because in cruise when at 120 KIAS the aircraft start to shake a lot.

I hope I am helping.

Regards.

Edit: Also Fred in your config of Bell 206B you have VNE = 120 MPH, this should be 150 MPH (130 KIAS).

Hi,
sundog is fixing the configuration now, we exchanged an email on this problem, it seems there was an excessive rotor torque and a not sufficient stabilizer effect...

regarding the VNE issue, it a typing mistake from me, VNE should be inserted in KIAS and not MPH....I am fixing the manual now

VNE will decrease due to lower air density (so pressure altitude) and increase if you are flying below max gross weight (affects torque). the increase and decrease is not a linear equation but a slightly more complex one.

Open and closed doors are not modeled, I could do it but it will depend on the loaded model.

The shaking of the aircraft is not programmed, it could be either a stuttering problem (easy if you are flying sideways, check your lateral velocity) or a configuration problem...

bye
Fred

Ok Fred, thanks for the reply. The shacking is high frequency, barely notice, but is there. I'll try to check it further.

Regards.


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Carlos "Focha" Cavaleiro
LPPR, Portugal
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sundog
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Posted: Mar. 10 2010,14:07

OK, I have redone the last .cfg due to several problems...  Seems I was changing the wrong values to attain the flight characteristics I wanted.

This profile flies better than previous ones; but I am still having problems with VNE, flying at higher altitudes, and some ground problems.  

http://www.mediafire.com/file/z5y25tmljju/Bell_412_EP_v1.05.zip


Thanks Fred for the support, I took your advise and it helped to fix some problems.

@ Focha, I believe the reason for the shaking you experienced was because of a value I should not have had in the profile.  I hope this goes away with the new one.  1 question though;  Was your updates per second value in the HTR menu below 30?  

Anyway, enjoy the profile, I enjoy trying to make these as real as I can!


Edited by sundog on Mar. 10 2010,14:08
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dennison
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Posted: Mar. 10 2010,18:35

I think the slight shake is a bonus, it gives a sense of helicopter vibration. As long as the effect is not too strong it's a good side effect in my opinion.

I understand how for most shaking is seen as a problem/unwelcome  as helicopter vibration has not been simulated before(AFAIK).

Anyone who has flown in a real one will know all about it though.

Is it known yet, how to control this effect within HTR?


Edited by dennison on Mar. 10 2010,18:45

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Focha
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Posted: Mar. 10 2010,20:08

@ sundog - In fact I have the value at 20. Regarding the ground issues I think Fred is already aware and is working on a new version.

@ dennison - Yes, helicopter are shaking machines. More or less depends on what type of machine is. Alouette III turns you into a milk shake. But on a 350 B3 is really smooth, not so much for a 130 B4. There are lots of helicopter with lots of different vibrations, that surely is complex to simulate on a PC sim, and it's a bit annoying to have the cockpit shacking since in real life, in normal frequencies you don't have your eyes in resonance. But some types of turbulence would be welcome. Maybe we get lucky.  :cool:

Regards and I'll test the new file. Thank you a lot for your work.


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Carlos "Focha" Cavaleiro
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sundog
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Posted: Mar. 11 2010,00:21

Focha,

I had that shaking as well when my setting was @ 20.  I bumped my setting up to 50, and it stopped...   You may want to try that.
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dennison
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Posted: Mar. 11 2010,07:30

Quote (Focha @ Mar. 10 2010,20:08)
@ dennison - Yes, helicopter are shaking machines. More or less depends on what type of machine is. Alouette III turns you into a milk shake. But on a 350 B3 is really smooth, not so much for a 130 B4. There are lots of helicopter with lots of different vibrations, that surely is complex to simulate on a PC sim, and it's a bit annoying to have the cockpit shacking since in real life, in normal frequencies you don't have your eyes in resonance. But some types of turbulence would be welcome. Maybe we get lucky.  :cool:

Regards and I'll test the new file. Thank you a lot for your work.

Yep,
I'm a helicopter engineer by trade, I'm just saying that a small amount of shake adds to the realism in general of all sim helicopters in my opinion.

It would seem HTR can simulate Vibration to a degree as the shake is only present when the application is applied to an aircraft.

I'm sure most won't like it, just me i think.

I agree, to much would be a pain and get on your nerves.The effect is quite subtle anyway.

So which lines of the cfg do you edit to add or remove the shake effect?

Regards


Edited by dennison on Mar. 11 2010,07:51

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Focha
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Posted: Mar. 11 2010,09:34

Quote (dennison @ Mar. 11 2010,07:30)
Quote (Focha @ Mar. 10 2010,20:08)
@ dennison - Yes, helicopter are shaking machines. More or less depends on what type of machine is. Alouette III turns you into a milk shake. But on a 350 B3 is really smooth, not so much for a 130 B4. There are lots of helicopter with lots of different vibrations, that surely is complex to simulate on a PC sim, and it's a bit annoying to have the cockpit shacking since in real life, in normal frequencies you don't have your eyes in resonance. But some types of turbulence would be welcome. Maybe we get lucky.  :cool:

Regards and I'll test the new file. Thank you a lot for your work.

Yep,
I'm a helicopter engineer by trade, I'm just saying that a small amount of shake adds to the realism in general of all sim helicopters in my opinion.

It would seem HTR can simulate Vibration to a degree as the shake is only present when the application is applied to an aircraft.

I'm sure most won't like it, just me i think.

I agree, to much would be a pain and get on your nerves.The effect is quite subtle anyway.

So which lines of the cfg do you edit to add or remove the shake effect?

Regards

I am not quite sure that the vibrations are implemented. The shake that we got it seems to be caused by the lower frequency that the program reads the data from sim. Maybe Fred will implement an option to have or not have vibration effects. The vibrations I was getting were really high frequency so that was really annoying. Maybe having a lower random frequency would be great.
One addon that really mimic the vibrations of the panel and control is the Aerosoft Dornier Do 27, although it's not a helicopter neither a turbine, helicopter's devs could learn from it.

Best regards.


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Carlos "Focha" Cavaleiro
LPPR, Portugal
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nono1928
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Posted: Mar. 11 2010,14:35

I would also like to have vibrations implemented, and not only when reaching the VNE. I think it would add a lot of realism :)
Just check this video, I really enjoy it:
Bell 206 vibration

By the way, thanks a lot again frednaar for your software!

BR
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TAC X
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Posted: Mar. 11 2010,15:48

Default 206 already vibrates without HTR, as do most of the FSX A/C.  Maybe HTR is somehow magnifying this.

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John T.
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Posted: Mar. 11 2010,22:05

Quote (nono1928 @ Mar. 11 2010,10:35)
Just check this video, I really enjoy it:
Bell 206 vibration

I clicked on the link. It showed the video but absolutely nothing moved. It was like starring at a photo for a minute or so.

???


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frednaar
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Posted: Mar. 11 2010,22:08

Quote (nono1928 @ Mar. 11 2010,16:35)
I would also like to have vibrations implemented, and not only when reaching the VNE. I think it would add a lot of realism :)
Just check this video, I really enjoy it:
Bell 206 vibration

By the way, thanks a lot again frednaar for your software!

BR

OK optional vibration will be there for next release this weekend...
it is actually quite fun and realistic.

bye
Fred


Edited by frednaar on Mar. 11 2010,22:09

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dennison
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Posted: Mar. 12 2010,00:07

Quote (frednaar @ Mar. 11 2010,22:08)
BR[/quote]
OK optional vibration will be there for next release this weekend...
it is actually quite fun and realistic.

bye
Fred

Hi frednaar,

The above is excellent news.

Thank you for this outstanding program.


Bye!


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aeronauta
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Posted: Mar. 16 2010,02:12

Hi Fred, one comment I have is in the Flight Data screen I can only see ufrom the top up to Main rotor , as the screen refreshes constantly I cannot see live the last 3 lines neither can I enlarge the window...is this me or something simple??

I am trying a Huey HTR cfg and having problems as the helo tend to hit the tail as soon as collective gets to 60%, I have reviewed most values and I can't figure it out, if I move the cyclic fwd all the way it does not change, only if I move the x CG very far fw!!, which makes me think it is a dimension and weight but cannot findit,,any clues???

edit: running w7/64 FSX Acc and fsuipc 4.6

regards  Jorge.


Edited by aeronauta on Mar. 16 2010,02:13
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aeronauta
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Posted: Mar. 16 2010,05:51

update...after reading that the .cfg file has no action in the htr I went to the huey uh1-h aircraft.cfg (nemeth design) and found that the engine type was set to 1 (jet!!??), changed it to 3 (heloTurbine) and Voila!!!  it started to behave a bit better , so much that I then could start to tweak the htr file. now I am getting somewhere...

regards  Jorge
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frednaar
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Posted: Mar. 16 2010,08:48

Quote (aeronauta @ Mar. 16 2010,04:12)
Hi Fred, one comment I have is in the Flight Data screen I can only see ufrom the top up to Main rotor , as the screen refreshes constantly I cannot see live the last 3 lines neither can I enlarge the window...is this me or something simple??

I am trying a Huey HTR cfg and having problems as the helo tend to hit the tail as soon as collective gets to 60%, I have reviewed most values and I can't figure it out, if I move the cyclic fwd all the way it does not change, only if I move the x CG very far fw!!, which makes me think it is a dimension and weight but cannot findit,,any clues???

edit: running w7/64 FSX Acc and fsuipc 4.6

regards  Jorge.

Hi Jorge,
this is strange as the aircraft cfg parameter has nothing to do with HTR.... it seems to me it is mostly a Center of gravity issue. Is the center of gravity position below the main rotor?
Have you adjusted the default COG parameter to the empty weight value as per manual ? have you tried with mean aerodynamic chord set to 0 ?

I will be posting a new version of HTR with a more extended manual in the next few days (I am doing a final testing) and I have added a config troubleshooting section.

hope this helps
Fred


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aeronauta
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Posted: Mar. 16 2010,10:24

Yeah, thankyou Fred, I know you said that but I have tried averything before I changed the engine type and all changed, I am looking fw to a newer versions as I could not understand the rudder rest parameter  , as I operate the rudder the flight shows on the left from 0 to 100% and nothing on the right, if I go to 50  I can have left and right control ...

will wait for the new version and comment then...I like the program as I am a Dodo 206 fan and would like a huey , but it looks a long way away yet... so this may be as close as I could get...

regards  Jorge   (thankyou for your help)
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frednaar
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Posted: Mar. 16 2010,13:46

Quote (aeronauta @ Mar. 16 2010,12:24)
Yeah, thankyou Fred, I know you said that but I have tried averything before I changed the engine type and all changed, I am looking fw to a newer versions as I could not understand the rudder rest parameter  , as I operate the rudder the flight shows on the left from 0 to 100% and nothing on the right, if I go to 50  I can have left and right control ...

will wait for the new version and comment then...I like the program as I am a Dodo 206 fan and would like a huey , but it looks a long way away yet... so this may be as close as I could get...

regards  Jorge   (thankyou for your help)

The rudder in a helicopter and in HTR controls the pitch of the tail rotor blades which goes to 0% where the tail rotor develops no thrust to 100% where it develops the max thrust.

So if you put 0% rotor you will turn by the torque generated by the main rotor, if you put 100% the thrust and therefore torque generated by the tail rotor exceeds the torque of the main rotor and you will yaw in the other direction.

From hover to max forward flight you should ideally have the two torques that sums 0 in order to fly forward, otherwise you will fly sideways (enable the Display velocities on the HTR screen and check the Y or lateral velocity to see what I mean)
Considering most of the users are controlling the rudder by using a joystick and not the pedals, and it can be tiring to keep the joystick in the right position during long times I usually set the rudder middle position to the amount of torque that is necessary to compensate main rotor torque in forward cuise flight. Depending on the helicopter this ranges from 30% to 10%.

If you use the pedals this makes no difference, you'll just have the two feets aligned.

Hope it is clear
bye
Fred


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aeronauta
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Posted: Mar. 16 2010,22:14

I see, thankyou for the reply...
although I thought that at cruise speed the wheathervane effect of the tail vertical stabilizer would make the use of rudder unnecesary.

regards  Jorge


Edited by aeronauta on Mar. 16 2010,22:22
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highside7r
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Posted: Mar. 16 2010,23:22

Quote (aeronauta @ Mar. 16 2010,16:14)
I see, thankyou for the reply...
although I thought that at cruise speed the wheathervane effect of the tail vertical stabilizer would make the use of rudder unnecesary.

regards  Jorge

Correct Jorge on the B206. The offset is 5 degrees to the right to reduce the tail rotor thrust requirements in forward flight. Speed, well it's been awhile since my B206 days and I'm sure someone knows the exact number, but I'll go with 90-100 kts.

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aeronauta
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Posted: Mar. 18 2010,09:01

Fred after much reading and finding out, I have managed to get a reasonable .cfg file for the Nemeth Huey, all my concerns began as looking at the .cfg for the nemeth it looked as a copy of the default 206....which it almos was, then looking at the .air file my doubts were confirmed, the .air file was an exact copy , included the surface numbers!!!...anyway after rewriting the .cfg and the .air with my measurements and values I think I got it.
One thing that I cannot get is a smooth takeoff ,as I increase collective the helo starts bouncing up/down gently but enough to cause rough or heavy landing. otherwise once past that point it takes off ok, but as I fly from the VC it looks prety harsh!!!. By the way I have the refresh rate at 90  and get still 30FPS .

I think this is the best realism program I have ever find and I think it has immense potential.
One thing I would like better explained is the meanAerodynamicChord, you say start at abaout 1/2 blade lenght and I have calculated it to be 1.91 for the Huey using the MAC formula.
Anothe efffect I found very hard to avoid is the torque in the pitch axis that the Tail rotor imposes...in the Huey the tail roto is very high above the CG and that causes it. Dont know how they go in real life but I have never seen it mentioned.

enough for today...keep up the fantastic work and thankyou again....

Jorge
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